Are you also afraid of the day on which nostr is going to turn as toxic as Twitter because the problem isn't the social network, it's the human psyche?
It's the combo of human psyche + the environment.
In the Stanford Prison Experiment, the environment is what turned normal people into brutal sadistic guards and defeated self-imprisoned prisoners.
On nostr, the environment (i.e. the clients, constructs, concepts) people interact with can have more influence on the outcome than people imagine.
Because they guide behavior and frame the user's thinking. You need to expend effort to escape bad framing, or to re-frame.
Fortunately, on nostr no one one person or group is in charge, so different clients (with different built-in expectations, framing) can compete and coexist.
TL;DR: bullish on nostr
In the Stanford Prison Experiment, the environment is what turned normal people into brutal sadistic guards and defeated self-imprisoned prisoners.
On nostr, the environment (i.e. the clients, constructs, concepts) people interact with can have more influence on the outcome than people imagine.
Because they guide behavior and frame the user's thinking. You need to expend effort to escape bad framing, or to re-frame.
Fortunately, on nostr no one one person or group is in charge, so different clients (with different built-in expectations, framing) can compete and coexist.
TL;DR: bullish on nostr
For the moment, I choose to enjoy and bask in the camraderie.😁
I'll also choose to be optimistic about the ability and skill of the community to conceive of and leverage ways to minimize those tendencies going forward...🙏😁👍
I'll also choose to be optimistic about the ability and skill of the community to conceive of and leverage ways to minimize those tendencies going forward...🙏😁👍
If it gets that big, then I hope there will also be enough kindness to offset it
Your post is being widely read.
Added to the member.cash/hot feed
Added to the member.cash/hot feed
People could keep their shadow side on Twitter and nostr could stay same/sane…
Yes. I’m afraid. But I own my own profile, if a client gets toxic I can leave it, if a fellow user is toxic I may unfollow, there’s no need to “monetize” a decentralized system, so advertising, in theory is unnecessary. If there’s no advertising there’s no need for algorithmic manipulation. I’m not forced to see things I haven’t followed. I see a chance at a social network without toxicity. A network that doesn’t demand engagement. That has no shareholders to remunerate. No alterior motive other than to enable communication and expression.
I ain't scared. But yeah, there are a ton of toxic assholes in the world. they'll show up and try to ruin things.
In day to day happenings there is a cost associated with bad behaviour which is the deterent.
That’s why people in cars get more angry and shout because they are in metal cages protected from cost.
Bring in the cost for bad behaviour!
That’s why people in cars get more angry and shout because they are in metal cages protected from cost.
Bring in the cost for bad behaviour!
Afraid, no. Individually, people are great. Collectively, people suck. Toxicity is an unavoidable side effect of when people gather and share competing ideas. Inevitable.
I'm hopeful that the incentive structure will help good people get positive changes developed/implemented, and that those changes will be the foundation of a new culture. Pv
If and when the magical thinking, pseudo science and conspiratorial/political outrage seeps in here, you’ll know nostr has been infiltrated by the bullshit peddlers.
My fingers are crossed for the better angels of human nature.
My fingers are crossed for the better angels of human nature.
Subjective, but I feel I've already seen it tending that way. Not so much toxic blah blah blah, don't care about that. Just people coming and acting like it's the bird app blasting everything in a negative manner. Keep the PV flowing y'all and keep building.
It's why I constantly talk to people about decrying the ability to witness the mechanations of their own mind without resistance or attachment. Because it's our awareness that changes our individual world view and as a consequence the value systems and world views of civilization over time.
If/when that happens - we’ll have conceived of something even better.
Naaaah. Here we have Pura vida. Proof of PV is incorruptible 💜
I think people disassociate themselves from their “social media personality” hence toxicity.
But it does depend on how much impact the algorithm really has on Twitter too because arguably on Nostr, people are just creating the same echo chambers through which relays they connect to and who they follow (global is pretty unusable on free relays).
But it does depend on how much impact the algorithm really has on Twitter too because arguably on Nostr, people are just creating the same echo chambers through which relays they connect to and who they follow (global is pretty unusable on free relays).
I am hopeful that the incentives are just different enough that the network naturally resists.
The only aspect I can see that would lead us to that same toxic place is ppl willing to pay to doomscroll. IOW they actively spend their funds directly on ppl that feature (and even stage) train wrecks for attention (and funds). Time will test just how committed human nature is to seeking this when it has a cost.
The only aspect I can see that would lead us to that same toxic place is ppl willing to pay to doomscroll. IOW they actively spend their funds directly on ppl that feature (and even stage) train wrecks for attention (and funds). Time will test just how committed human nature is to seeking this when it has a cost.
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Scripture tells us to envision that everyone shall sit under their own vine, fig tree and relay and no one shall make them afraid. 😁
Difficult to paid doomscroll with money that is supply capped
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I am still believing that most of the people are good. Just they are manipulated and steered by almighty 'Algorithm' on Twitter
Will be smaller communities on nostr, more niche. Not everyone screaming about everything in one forum
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Yes, but I anticipate we'll have tools to help us navigate the toxic seas by then.
Yes i said the same the other day. I want nostr to stay as is as long as possible. The vibe is great atm.
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I think zaps will incentivize the opposite.
If you want to reward people on nostr, you already can with simple LN tips. Nobody has to know, other than you and the recipient. If you want the recipient to know it was from you, you can send a DM, a reply or add a comment in the LN payment.
Simple, private, elegant.
Zaps, since they're public, bring other incentives (vanity, peer pressure, perceived importance of highly-zapped notes or profiles, etc).
Influencers are already pushing it. Some are shaming wallet devs into integrating it. Memes are memed into existence and hype is hyped to the sky.…
If you want to reward people on nostr, you already can with simple LN tips. Nobody has to know, other than you and the recipient. If you want the recipient to know it was from you, you can send a DM, a reply or add a comment in the LN payment.
Simple, private, elegant.
Zaps, since they're public, bring other incentives (vanity, peer pressure, perceived importance of highly-zapped notes or profiles, etc).
Influencers are already pushing it. Some are shaming wallet devs into integrating it. Memes are memed into existence and hype is hyped to the sky.…
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I understand your concerns Carlos.
Personally I like zaps and see no reason to remove them, just as I don't see any reason to remove likes. Both can be gamed but I am more interested in considering in which situations they may become a problem.
As I see it, the problem of both zaps + likes emerges if/when notes are sorted algorithmically by zaps or likes. We are not there yet, but it will likely arrive at some point.
Such a sorting function will be gamed by influencers to gain visibility. High visibility = more zaps and donations.
Users creating their own Lists reduces the need to have sorting algorithms.
A positive sorting would be if I go to someone's profile, and I can see an option to sort their past notes based on likes or zaps. That would be a neutral sorting approach where the notes from one person compete against each other based on public responses.
Personally I like zaps and see no reason to remove them, just as I don't see any reason to remove likes. Both can be gamed but I am more interested in considering in which situations they may become a problem.
As I see it, the problem of both zaps + likes emerges if/when notes are sorted algorithmically by zaps or likes. We are not there yet, but it will likely arrive at some point.
Such a sorting function will be gamed by influencers to gain visibility. High visibility = more zaps and donations.
Users creating their own Lists reduces the need to have sorting algorithms.
A positive sorting would be if I go to someone's profile, and I can see an option to sort their past notes based on likes or zaps. That would be a neutral sorting approach where the notes from one person compete against each other based on public responses.
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Yes, everything that has a social aspect can be gamed, because social signals are shortcuts. Algos take this to the extreme, but human psychology tries to manipulate what it can. Well designed clients can probably keep that in check.
My beef with zaps (in their current iteration) is that they go against the ethos of LN, on multiple levels. It encourages centralization of nodes (DoS risk for receivers), loss of privacy (why document what you send and receive?), just to name a few.…
Yes, everything that has a social aspect can be gamed, because social signals are shortcuts. Algos take this to the extreme, but human psychology tries to manipulate what it can. Well designed clients can probably keep that in check.
My beef with zaps (in their current iteration) is that they go against the ethos of LN, on multiple levels. It encourages centralization of nodes (DoS risk for receivers), loss of privacy (why document what you send and receive?), just to name a few.…
All of the publicly published descriptive analytics and vanity metrics have this potential downside.
Zaps have the potential to be just as bad as likes in terms how it negatively impacts social media use. It could be much worse though because there is some financial value attached to it.
I agree that the lightning tip is really neat and a clean way of handling it.
My project will implement zaps in our apps, but we’ll make it configurable. Users should be able to turn off the ability to zap their own notes and disable the display of zaps across all notes.
In general, more control of the user experience should be given to the user.
Zaps have the potential to be just as bad as likes in terms how it negatively impacts social media use. It could be much worse though because there is some financial value attached to it.
I agree that the lightning tip is really neat and a clean way of handling it.
My project will implement zaps in our apps, but we’ll make it configurable. Users should be able to turn off the ability to zap their own notes and disable the display of zaps across all notes.
In general, more control of the user experience should be given to the user.
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That's the right approach, IMO. Glad to see apps giving users more choice.
One thing to keep in mind is that, as per the current zap spec, if a receiver LN addr supports zaps, you cannot (should not?) allow both a plain LN tip and a zap to that recipient. So by offering users that choice in the app settings, you're going against the current spec :)
Which only makes sense, your approach is the sensible thing to do.
One thing to keep in mind is that, as per the current zap spec, if a receiver LN addr supports zaps, you cannot (should not?) allow both a plain LN tip and a zap to that recipient. So by offering users that choice in the app settings, you're going against the current spec :)
Which only makes sense, your approach is the sensible thing to do.
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Oh, that’s interesting. My thinking was that tip was profile specific and zap was note specific.
I do think that the ability for a user to turn off the displayed counter for likes or zaps is a good thing.
I do think that the ability for a user to turn off the displayed counter for likes or zaps is a good thing.
And what do you gain by faking zaps? Why are people so obsessed with this notion?
All these concerns are a nothingburger compared to what zaps enable - seamless value transfer. Want to fake your zaps? Go right ahead. I’m sure some will. Fuck it, let the thousands do it and get off on it. The rest of us will just use it for real value transfer.
All these concerns are a nothingburger compared to what zaps enable - seamless value transfer. Want to fake your zaps? Go right ahead. I’m sure some will. Fuck it, let the thousands do it and get off on it. The rest of us will just use it for real value transfer.
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I'm sure they had a similar conversation when they introduced paper notes that "represented" gold :)
I'd like to believe that were true but I'm sure we'll end up with tribal behaviour on here just like on all social media. I think the lack of algorithms that are geared towards optimising engagement can help with that to some extent but people will still enjoy arguing with their enemies. That probably means a good put-down or attack on said enemies will be rewarded in zaps by their tribe.
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I think mostly the best we can do is to be mindful and self aware of our own nature so that we can avoid getting caught up in such dynamics ourselves. And also to lead by example in rewarding more pro-social behaviour.
Like I said, I do think nostr changes the incentives as compared to centralised social media, but I see that more as removing an amplifier rather than really affecting human nature itself.
We'll see how it plays out here as adoption grows and a more diverse set of people join, connect, and clash with each other. I do think its great that such a positive and friendly culture has developed so far.
Like I said, I do think nostr changes the incentives as compared to centralised social media, but I see that more as removing an amplifier rather than really affecting human nature itself.
We'll see how it plays out here as adoption grows and a more diverse set of people join, connect, and clash with each other. I do think its great that such a positive and friendly culture has developed so far.
To err is to be human. We will never have a purified experience because it's simply not in our nature.
That said, I'm not sure there's a better way to promote good behavior than to be able to incentivize it, so I'm optimistic we'll have an overall better experience than on the existing legacy platforms.
That said, I'm not sure there's a better way to promote good behavior than to be able to incentivize it, so I'm optimistic we'll have an overall better experience than on the existing legacy platforms.
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I would argue that the pure mind is the base layer of your nature. It's just that many are blown about by mental inertia and cling to fixed views and beliefs. When that is the case your mind is not flexible and open and the Self identity feels easily attacked by ideas/ thoughts that challenge its world views.
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I'd agree with that. Will financially incentivizing for good behavior promote to curb negative & unproductive dialog? Time will tell.
